Pizza is on the list of the most unifying and polarizing of iconic worldly foods. In Chicago, pizza is a sacred entity; when attacked by New Yorkers, Neapolitans, Sicilians, Californians and the lot, Chicagoans circle their deep-dish walls in defense, breadsticks at the ready.

While some will balk, objecting that real Chicagoans don’t eat thick crust pizza, they’re wrong, of course they do. But, the go-to, neighborhood pizza, consumed on the daily will forever and always be the thin-crust. And this is not just in Chicago; this underrated pie that is finally receiving its long overdue recognition is a Midwest staple found in local pizza taverns from the lakes of Minnesota to the dairy farms of Wisconsin, from the cornfields of Iowa to the central plains of Ohio.

For those from the American Midwest, tavern style pizza is a cracker crust pie – haphazardly sliced into squares – concealed by charred-edge pepperonis, pools of fat forming in each spicy meat-ring’s center, at a neon-lit dive bar with Neil Diamond’s “Sweet Caroline” playing in the background – it’s nostalgia on a plate. And finally, it made its way to Asia in September 2022, at Shanghai’s very own Zup Pizza Bar.

READ MORE: Zup Pizza: A Chicago Hou-Lee Trinity of Dough, Sauce & Cheese

Yet, despite its cult following, after just over a year, Zup Pizza Bar shut its doors – a sad, sad day for Shanghai’s pizza loving community. However, Zup Pizza Bar owners Wayne Hou and Lee Tseng kept the brand alive through popups across the city. And the shining silver lining finally made a showing a full year later (just this past October), when Zup reopened a second brick-and-mortar store on Shanxi Bei Lu.

We sat down with the duo at their new digs’ – an omakase bar-style space with seating for 20 people (a far cry from the original outpost with space for 90 patrons) to hash out what Shanghai restaurant go-ers are actually after these days and how those trends are changing the way eatery owners approach new restaurant and bar business models.

What was the main impetus for opening a Chicago tavern style pizza joint in Shanghai back in 2022?
Shanghai already had a great pizza scene then, but in a city of 25 million, there should still be room for thin crust tavern-style ‘za, amongst offers. We believed that the grid-cut, crispy crust was something unique that would be a welcome alternative for the local Chinese crowd. More importantly, we wanted to show Shanghai that Midwest giardiniera (an Italian relish of vinegar-pickled veggies belovedly adopted by Chicagoans, a city renowned for its Italian immigrant population that has so heavily influenced its food scene) on a pizza was a natural match and a pairing they might enjoy.

What are some of the biggest trends (both good and bad) you’ve witnessed in the F&B scene in Shanghai since opening your first restaurant here?
There is a trend towards downsizing (in terms of venue size) to manage the startup risk that has been picking up speed over the past three years. Furthermore, new venue concepts must really focus on the connection between product quality/value provided compared to price, as consumers are far more cost-conscious these days compared to years past.

There is also a much greater emphasis placed on social media presence, and venues that don’t prioritize this presence can really struggle.

Finally, there’s greater demand for promotional discounting. Discounting and group deals are a tough long-term game to play because the more you lean on discounted deals, the quality of the offer you receive will also become discounted in return.

How have these trends effected your business model over time?
Considering the new economic issues China is facing, we have reverted back to the model we initially laid out for Zup Pizza Bar: a cozy neighborhood pizza bar for people to get a great pizza, small bites, and good drinks. Alongside that, we’ve made it a semi self-serve model where guests scan QR codes to order. The seating options feature open kitchen and bar seating plus street façade standing space. It’s a simple system that allows our team to focus on making a quality product and getting it out to diners efficiently. We’re hoping that this ‘lighter version’ of Zup Pizza Bar is something we can continue to build out successfully.

What was the main reason why the initial location closed?
The location was far larger than what we needed. With the economic downturn, it just became a tough ask to customers to continually make it to a second-floor location without any special appeal in terms of environment. We couldn’t justify the overhead costs and eventually had to shut it down to cut the ‘bleeding.’

How is this reason reflective of the shifting F&B scene in Shanghai over the last few years?
A lot of newer startups are finding the sales generated from the traditional model make it tough to keep the business open given high costs of operation. Consumers are fickler with their spending nowadays and do not spend as freely even when they are out for the night. If you’re not an already established business with a clear audience supporting what you offer, it is quite likely you’re trending towards lower margins or perhaps even suffering losses monthly. The ability to build a success brand and to market it effectively has never been more important. If you’re not able to identify and capture your target audience effectively on a consistent basis, it’s quite tough to stay in business as a food and beverage venue.

How has Zup had to evolve with this newest iteration of a brick-and-mortar store to fit the changing F&B demands of Shanghai consumers?
We’re trying to become as lean as possible without sacrificing the quality of the products we offer.  Zup Pizza Bar takes pride in the fact that we carefully choose all our ingredients so that we can offer guests something we’re proud to serve. Therefore, we are cutting out the full-service aspect and ask that consumers scan to order and pay so we can redirect the cost of labor and use it towards keeping the quality of the produce high. Furthermore, we are in a smaller environment where diners can still sit in comfy chair or chill by the streetside façade without compromise. And yes, curated playlists by Wayne are still on point. We are hoping this will prove to be a welcome addition to any neighborhood for an awesome experience anytime, day or night!

In terms of offerings, we still offer a lot of our former top-selling items, plus we will soon launch a specials board to rotate in new dishes and old classics alike for the dine-in crowd. We’re also building out a much larger pickling program, with new pickled peppers alongside our house giardiniera. Most importantly, we have a build-your-own pizza option now, as well as a lot more by-the-slice selections for grab-and-go and delivery.

What is your favorite aspect of the newest location that differs from the previous?
We really like the warm, convivial feel of the space, as well as the lightness of the model so we can keep the focus on the pizza. The previous location, partly due to its larger size, forced us to do a far larger menu to make ends meet. The current model features pizza as the focal point, and it gives patrons a direct understanding of what the Zup Pizza Bar brand is all about. The visibility of a first-floor location, coupled with a wide, omakase-like façade that allows us to meet and greet our new Jing’an neighbors, is also a huge plus!

What are some of the high highs and low lows you have faced as a small business owner in Shanghai over the last few years?
We actually tried opening before the Shanghai lockdown, so if you’re asking about lows, that is one of them. 

All jokes aside, I would identify the highs with being able to open the first tavern style pizzeria in Shanghai (and quite possibly even Asia) to good fanfare in September 2022.  Even now as we start rolling out the opening of the new Zup space, we see former customers coming in and telling us how much they missed the food and how happy they are that we’re back.

A clear low was our lack of ability to keep the previous location operational; we had to face some tough ‘looks in the mirror’ regarding failure of the business and questioning whether it was worth trying to realize our original vision after it didn’t work in a larger format. 

What has been the most positive facet out of your whole Shanghai F&B industry career?
Our Zup community is still going strong. Despite the economy not being what it once was, we feel the industry folks are still coming together to do what we can to make it a close-knit community for both the customers and our counterparts alike. Larger scale events and parties are slowly returning, and we take solace knowing there are still many familiar faces around the city that are always willing to show love and support.

And the negative?
We obviously all wish the economic environment were better, or (dare we say it) the government agencies as well as landlords would offer more support to help balance out the situation for small business owners. However, despite all the challenges, there is still room to build something great and carve out one’s own place in the game, so on we go!

What advice can you share with other small F&B business owners trying to make it in Shanghai these days?
Our best advice to new prospective owners starting out is to really know the value of your offerings and your target audience. If you’re just starting something because you think it’s a good idea, definitely do some testing (pop-ups, festivals, etc.) to assess before jumping into a full-sized venue. Costs and operational pressure are as high as they’ve ever been, so tread lightly before committing!